来自瑞士的Maxime Plescia-Buchi是一位刺青艺术家，也是视觉设计师，杂志主编，创意总监。他在视觉设计行业浸润多年，曾经合作过的客户包括MiuMiu，Chole等。他的刺青老师是传奇大师Filip Leu。Maxime于2005年创办的SANG BLEU是一个多元的文化品牌，专业领域涉及品牌资讯、战略及艺术指导，旗下拥有分别位于伦敦、苏黎世和洛杉矶的三家刺青工作室。而他创办的TTTISM，是一个通过数字平台及传统杂志结合的形式着力于分享艺术、设计、时尚、刺青相关资讯的先锋平台。
Ink Reactor很荣幸有机会向他请教了几个与刺青行业有关的问题，在这里与大家分享。
Maxime Plescia Buchi
Photo Courtesy of Sang Bleu
Ink Reactor:
决定一个刺青也许是当下的一瞬间，人心会变，但刺青却具有对抗时间的特质。您认为除了物理准备之外，刺青师有引导客人在心理上对文身做准备的义务吗？
Do you think tattoo artists have the responsibility to guide their clients about how to prepare for a tattoo decision mentally?
Maxime:
我认为刺青世界最令人着迷的就是它的多样性，并不能说所有刺青师都有这样一种责任。你的责任是保持诚实，对自己，还有对身边的人诚实。如果非要说到责任，我认为唯一的责任是允许每个人做自己想做的事。
In the world of tattooing, I don't want to say there's a responsibility, more or whatever, to all tattooists, because what makes tattooing so amazing is its diversity. What your duty is, to be honest. Be honest to yourself, and honest to the people around you. The only duty would be to allow other people to do their thing.
刺青不是一种所谓的“文化”，它是一种实践。确切的说，它是一种工具，是一件人们一直在做的事情。从历史的角度来说，人类在各自的文明都还没有建立联系的时候就已经在做这件事了，就像是音乐一样，你不能说音乐本身是一种“文化”。但世界上会发生很多的文化运动，文化融合，这些活动通过音乐的形式，形成了很多新的元素，文身也是这样。所以如果要更精确的回答这个问题，你就需要明确一些界限，比如我们讨论的是中国，是英国，还是你的个人的实践？我们是在怎样的一种尺度下讨论这个问题？还有就是我们讨论的究竟是哪一种文身类型？
Tattooing is not a culture. It's a practice. It's a tool [tattooing]. It's a thing people do. And people have done that, through history, in different countries, with no link to each other's, like music. You can't say that music is a culture. But there're a lot of cultural movements cultural coherence coaches that use music as a base, as a sort of banding element. And this is what tattooing is as well. So, to answer the question more precisely would we have to define, are we talking about China, are we talking about England, are we talking about you? What kind of scale we're working on? And then, what kind of tattoo is that we're talking about.
在我的个人观点中，每个人只需要明确他们自己想要的工作方式。不管怎么说，你需要通过明确你自己最终想要达到怎样的成就来界定自己的道德标准，以及对你来说最优先考虑的事情。
In my opinion, everyone needs to just identify how they would like to work. And at the end of the day, work towards that basic sort of resetting of their own. The idea is to set your own prerogatives your own moral duties for yourself, based on what you would like to achieve.
如果你认为传统的做法对你来说是最有意义的，那么就按照传统的做法来，告诉人们这样的刺青就是你理解中的刺青。但一定要知道这是在你自己的理论框架内的东西，这也只是你自己真诚的相信的所谓的刺青，不要试图把这些观念兜售给那些与你的理念没有连结的人。要保持诚实。
If the way you're able to do tattoos that are meaningful to yourself is by being very old school about it. Be old school about it. Tell people this is what tattooing is, this is what your tattooing is. But this is the tattooing you will be doing and be honest about it. Don't try to sell it to people who will not connect with that. Be honest.
我不认为所有的刺青师都有教育别人的责任。你知道的，别人想要的可能与你理解的完全相反，他们想要的可能是随心所欲的生活。而有的人，比如你和我这样的，可能想要参考一些过去的所谓刺青的框架，并且希望让更多人懂得欣赏刺青。那在这种情况下，当然的，一些小小的引导可能是有帮助的。但我永远不会去批判那些不以这些为标准工作的人，因为那样可能是他们对自己诚实的做事方式。
I don't think that all tattooists have a duty to educate people. You know, they might want the opposite, they want people who come very ignorant to the thing. And other people might want to work to be standing the frame of reference tattooing and to bring more people to appreciate tattooing, which might be your case which is definitely my case. Then yes, a little bit of education can be helpful. But I am never going to judge someone who does not feel that they have that duty because that might be the right thing for them.
在这个问题上我的第二部分看法是，我的确感受到刺青世界有一些事情正在发生。刺青在世界范围内都在变得越来越主流化。但刺青世界其实从没有在意过自己是否需要被主流文化接受。刺青一直在法外逍遥自在，人们从不在意这些因为一切都进行的很顺利。
So, now moving on to the second sort of part of my answer. I think that there's something happening in the tattoo world. Tattooing is now getting more and more mainstream attention and interest worldwide. But the tattoo industry never really bothered to deal with, you know, making itself more accepted or more official. It exists de facto, but people never care because things were going well.
如果现在这种因为疫情的封锁发生在五十年前，刺青师们只会继续正常工作，因为他们在与主流世界平行的另一个地下世界里生活。但现在已经不是五十年前了，现在的刺青世界被疫情冲击的非常严重。
If this situation (Covid-19 lockdown) happened 50 years ago, tattooists might just have kept working because they were living in the parallel world, in the underground. But it's not 50 years ago, it's today, so the tattoo industry was hit really bad by the current situation.
如果我们希望刺青产业继续发展并且繁荣，那么这种繁荣必然对应的需要承担某种责任，因为这样大量的曝光其实会让你变得更脆弱。我们已经不在雷达侦测的范围之外了。对那些想要这种曝光的人当然是件好事。如果你很享受这种曝光带来的收益、优质的客人，以及在社交媒体上享有很高的知名度这些红利，那么你就是属于主流文化的，这与你自己认为刺青是亚文化与否无关。当然啦这是另外一个话题了。事实上我们每天的客人大部分都是生活在所谓的主流社会中的人不是吗？而你作为刺青师，是一个向他们提供你的技术的人。我们是时候必须要更新对自我的认知和对这个产业的认知了，不然刺青世界在未来会遭受更多因为没有转换思考模式而产生的困难。
If we want the tattoo industry to keep growing and thriving, then that kind of prosperity comes of some sorts of responsibilities, at least exposure that will make you more vulnerable. We are not off the radar anymore. Good for them if that's what you want. If you're enjoying raising your prices and make a lot of good clients, being on big on Instagram, then you're mainstream. Whether you think tattooing is an underground thing or not. That's another question but, in fact, the people you tattoo every day, they are normal people. And you're a person, offering a service for them. The tattoo industry will suffer even more in the future if we don't start updating the perception that we have of the tattoo industry.
所以说，让我们再回到在道德上是否需要承担教育责任这个问题。我认为，起码作为一个刺青工作室的主理人，因为我有能力，所以我就有责任分享我的认知，去帮助我旗下的艺术家们，引导他们更新对于这个行业的认知，以及适应与这个世界新的相处模式。同时我也在尝试通过创立TTTISM，出版杂志等等的形式帮助人们更新对刺青世界的认知。
So, when it comes back to moral duty in education-- I think, at least for myself as a shop owner. At least, I feel that It's my responsibility to help my artists that are just working with me to help them navigate those things and be a bit more educated about those things. Because otherwise, that exposure does make people very vulnerable. I feel that I do have a bit of duty because I am able to deal with those things. I have a duty to share this knowledge and disability, and I'll do this as a sharp person, but I also try and do this by TTTISM and my magazine. I try as much as I can to not just to capitalize on that, but also trying to give back. I share and trying to empower and help people being able to navigate.
Healed Tattoo By Maxime Plescia Buchi
Photo From @maximeplesciabuchi
Ink Reactor:
关于刚才谈到的随着时代更新观念的部分，您认为刺青师有必要向大众介绍相关的历史和文化背景的知识来帮助人们理解它吗？
As a part of updating the perception, do you think that tattooists should introduce more about the history and culture background to help mainstream understand tattooing?
Maxime:
大众对刺青的了解是自然会发生而且不会停止的一个进程。对刺青有负面印象的人并不会去思考文身到底是什么。他们不会去试图了解你是谁，或者去了解大多数的刺青师到底是什么样的人。他们的先入为主的观念是从与现在完全不同的过去继承过来的，而他们的观念会被证明是错误的。你能帮助加速这种变化的发生，但也没必要对于改变人们观念这种事过于激进。
That will happen naturally because you cannot stop progress. People with negative perception don't really think about what It's. They are not looking at who you're, who most of the tattoo artists truly are. Their preconceptions are often inherited from a different time when things were different. Those people will be proven wrong. You can help make the change fast, but you don't necessarily have to be extremely proactive about it.
简单来说，与你有同样看法的人会与他们身边的人交流。你是否经常遇见可能五十多岁的人对你说，“我以前一直很不喜欢文身，直到我们家二十多岁的孩子给我看了他们的刺青我才了解到现在的文身可以是什么样子。现在我也拥有了自己的刺青。”你没有必要去教育那些对刺青有预设的偏见的人。你应该做的是与那些与你同时代的人交流。你不需要走的太远，真的，那都是自然而然就会发生的事情。 The simple fact is that someone like yourself will talk to the people around them. How often did you hear a person may be in the 50s say "well, I never liked tattoos until my 20-year-old son or daughter showed me what it is. I've got tattooed, and now I want to tattoo." You don't need to educate those people. You need to educate the people who like you, your own generation. You don't need to go very far; this will happen naturally. And the people who are not ready to change, they are not ready to change about anything. The world will take care of that. You don't need to become extremely proactive.
也许你可以帮助你自己的客人经历这个转换的过程。而其他人自然会有他们生命中遇见的人去与他们交流。
You can help your clients get that through the process. Other people will deal with other people.
Maxime Plescia-Buchi designing the Sang Bleu II
Photo From www.read-a.com
Ink Reactor:
西方国家或日本的文身传承似乎相对中国而言更加具有连续性，您的刺青之路也是从一位具有深厚传统的大师那里开始的，您能否从您的角度给我们一些在文身传统或相关方面的建议？
Chinese tattoo history does not share the same consistency as the western counties or Japan. Could you give me some advice in terms of tattoo heritage and tradition from your perspective?
Maxime:
如果你在西方国家工作，你当然需要适应西方的传统情况。又或者你可以在日本呆几个月，在英国或美国呆几个月以学习当地的文身做法，或者可以通过阅读书籍来学习很多东西。注意到这些传承的存在这件事情很重要，但在（是否需要继承）这个问题上并没有对错之分。
If you come to work in the occidental country, of course, you need to adapt to that. You can spend a few months in Japan, a few months in England or America learning about tattooing, or you can read some books. It's important to be aware of those things. But there's no right or wrong.
我个人很珍视分享知识，也认为尊重这些知识是一件很棒的事情。但归根结底，你的职责是在自己身处的环境创造与这个环境有连结的东西。没有理由去生拉硬拽另一种不同的文化到你的实践中去。了解传统的日本或美国文化很棒，但是我认为更重要的是向他们学习一些可能是技术方面的要素。西方文身以相同的方式从日本文身中学到了很多东西。不是风格上的学习，而是在技术方面进行的融合，例如刺青的尺度，或刺青设计如何能够经得起岁月的沉淀等等。
I personally value, sharing knowledge and I think It's great to respect and. But at the end of the day, your duty is to create something that's relevant to your context. There's no reason to bring there a different culture. It's cool to know about the traditional Japanese or American side of the culture, but I think It's more important to take a few elements such as the technical side of those things. Occidental tattooing learned a lot from Japanese tattoo in the same way. Not stylistically, but in the way of compositions are made or on the technical aspects, such as what kind of size, or a tattoo design must be able to age well.
曾经有一个阶段我们从日本文身学到了很多东西，但是现在西方刺青很好的把那些东西融合到了我们自己的实践中去。你现在正在追寻的问题将会在未来自然获得解答。当设想到中国刺青未来可能的创新和潜力的时候我觉得是非常令人兴奋的。
There's a term that we learned from Japanese tattooing, but we have been just adapted to what was relevant to western tattooing. What you're doing right now is going to work out in the future. I think it's incredibly exciting to imagine the amount of innovation and the potential of tattooing in China.
可能现在你们正在探索的，是如何去定义所谓的中国刺青，也许接下来的十年，二十年或三十年大家继续在进行这样的探索，它不可能立刻得到答案。随着时间的流逝，它会自行发生，但也许你们可以向着正确的方向上做一些引导。我想以相同的方式引导文身向主流发展，但目标并不仅仅是作为一种所谓的商业上的成功，而是让刺青更容易让人们理解。我希望文身这件事在走入主流社会的同时能够依然保有自己的灵魂，这也是为什么我在十五年前创办SANGBLEU杂志的原因。
I think it would be a matter now, like the next ten, twenty, thirty years of defining what the Chinese version of tattoo culture will be, and there's no way it can happen faster. It'll happen by itself over time, and then maybe you can help to guide this. The same way that I wanted to guide the evolution of tattooing towards mainstream but not as a sell-out, but in the sense that accessible to people in general. But I didn't want tattooing to just be commercialized and to lose its soul in the process. And that's why I started SANG BLEU magazine fifteen years ago.
不管怎么说，这些事无论如何都会发生。在这样的变革中，我会认为自己是有道德义务的，因为我意识到了这个变化的发生，而现在我也成为了其中的一份子。我来自（与传统刺青师不同的）另一种文化背景，而我本身参与其中在某种程度上就是文身“升级”和“主流化”的一种表现。我想以一种带着对传统刺青艺人的尊重的方式去做这件事。从某种意义上说，并不是从他们手中夺走一些东西，而是用一种同样能够使传统做法的刺青师获益的方式，让他们也了解到，这一切正在发生，（这种主流化的做法）并不是与你们对立的，而是能够为你们服务的。
It's going to happen anyway. This is the moral duty that I find for myself in such a major change; because I am conscious of it and now that I am a part of it. I came from another type of cultural background, just as myself getting involved in it in some ways as part of the gentrification and 'mainstreaminization'. I want to do it in a very respectful way. And in a way that we benefit from the people that I was sort of inheriting it from, not just taking it from them but like okay, this is happening now but look, it doesn't have to be against you. It can work for you.
采访/编辑/翻译：Yichun
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